40GallonsOfDoom
Well-Known Member
I kinda like the orange and black fins.
My fancy goldfish tank(s)
- Thread starter DMD123
- Start date
It really doesn’t bother me. That oranda is so friendly and outgoing that it really doesn’t matter to me if he loses the black. Might be kind of cool with just the orange and white. Kind of creamsicle colors.
My lemon head lost its yellow in head and fins but I like the pure white look about it.
Today is one week (7 days) for the new fish and it is doing well and looks and acts very healthy. I want to wait a minimum of 10 days to move him into a tank but I really do have a need for the QT tank. My white oranda is showing a bit of inflammation and raised scales on the one side. In fact the picture I posted before you can actually see a little bit of it. When looking at the fish from the bottom you can tell the left side is uneven in shape and a little swollen. This thing with the goldies has reminded me of owners of dogs and cats that are very line bred and that you know can have problems. I essentially bought problem fish, lol.
Debating on getting another small qt tank of just moving the new fish over a couple days early. The white oranda is eating still, swims around but on occasion will lose its equilibrium and be upside down for a moment, usually while eating. No other issues with it floating weird after eating or anything like that. Will likely try Epsom salt and Kanaplex treatment on it.
Debating on getting another small qt tank of just moving the new fish over a couple days early. The white oranda is eating still, swims around but on occasion will lose its equilibrium and be upside down for a moment, usually while eating. No other issues with it floating weird after eating or anything like that. Will likely try Epsom salt and Kanaplex treatment on it.
Lost the white oranda this morning, found it dying stuck on the filter intake. 
Not that I didnt expect this with the known problems these fish can have. It was interesting however that when I looked up the vendor who sold the fish there was a reviewer on Reddit that mentioned his fish were more 'delicate' and didnt seem to live as long....
This death has made me decide to put the new SHOGUN oranda in the 90g to replace the white oranda
Not that I didnt expect this with the known problems these fish can have. It was interesting however that when I looked up the vendor who sold the fish there was a reviewer on Reddit that mentioned his fish were more 'delicate' and didnt seem to live as long....
This death has made me decide to put the new SHOGUN oranda in the 90g to replace the white oranda
Moved the SHOGUN oranda into the 90g this morning. He seemed happy with the elbow room
Cleaned out the 20H QT tank, getting it prepped for another fish to add to the other goldfish tank. Still looking around for that fish but Im ready to go if I find something.
Cleaned out the 20H QT tank, getting it prepped for another fish to add to the other goldfish tank. Still looking around for that fish but Im ready to go if I find something.
Seriously am considering moving a few fish around. With the tri color losing all its black and turning orange, I have a tank that is very orange and white without a lot of variance. Might move that oranda into the other tank and then move the panda into the bigger tank. But now that I am aware of the color changes the fish can go through, I am not hopeful the panda will always look that way.
Just saw my milk cow ranchu has that stupid inflammation spot again, ugh.
Just saw my milk cow ranchu has that stupid inflammation spot again, ugh.
Haven’t been on in a bit… medical stuff, but it sounds like these fancy goldfish are a bit of a crapshoot…. Never know if they will change color or develop a weird bump.
It sounds stressful even though though they are peaceful fish.
It sounds stressful even though though they are peaceful fish.
The comparison to discus was made and laughed at but fancy goldfish are not easy at all. A lot of the care reminds me of people who choose pure bred dogs or cats knowing they have tendencies towards certain health issues. With the fancy goldfish you are getting into the same situation, swim bladder issues so far being the most common.
BPSabelhaus
Well-Known Member
Yep, selecting for mutations that would normally die in nature has its costs. The black may come back with different patterning or even bring in new colors.
Should have added, especially skin mutations. So sensitive to water and light.
Should have added, especially skin mutations. So sensitive to water and light.
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True enough, but the deleterious effects of persistent selection for a few desired traits are more complicated than that. In the case of these 'fancy' goldfish, there is no doubt that none of these fishes would survive in the face of competition from their wild-type progenitors in nature. But that is beside the point, because such competition is entirely hypothetical- these 'fancy' goldfish would never arise spontaneously in nature, and thus never face such competition; they only result from many generations of stringent selection at the hand of man. More subtle, but no less deleterious effects occur when one selects for particular traits in standard genetic crosses, because the unit under selection is not a specific gene, but the whole chromosome region that encodes the gene of interest, as well as many other genes linked to it. And since most traits under selection tend to be recessives, this results in loss of heterozygosity of that whole chromosomal region, exposing the adverse effects of linked genes whose effects are only apparent when homozygous. This rarely occurs in nature, and when it does, those individuals rarely contribute to the gene pool.
It doesn't have to be that way. 'Purebred' domestic animals, including pets like cats and dogs, tend to have breed-typical health issues that are well-known. No one planned it this way, the deleterious effects of recessive linked genes just 'came along for the ride.' But now we can test for many of those linked recessive genes using DNA analyses.
A case in point is the Ragdoll cat, a breed close to my heart. This bloodline was established relatively recently (1960's), and because of a convoluted early history, relatively few Ragdoll breeders existed early on. Because DNA typing was becoming routine at that time, it was possible to screen founder cats for linked genetic predispositions, and by consensus, to cross them out of the pedigrees early on. This has resulted in a purebred breed with all the desired traits, but no breed-typical genetic predispositions. They are as healthy as outbred kitty-cats.
BPSabelhaus
Well-Known Member
Yep, gotta bring in fresh blood. Even the same genes being expressed don't necessarily have the same inheritance pattern. But when you have that repeating expression is when the copy of a copy starts to break apart and not reprint as clearly so to speak.
Repacked Alex digging box and moistened the soil. Hopefully she drops her eggs soon. She's been really active, glass surfing a lot and just generally uncomfortable. She has a great appetite right now especially for dandelion greens. Kind of funny watching her try to eat. Her tongue eye coordination is a bit off with her body being a bit swollen from basically being pregnant. Wife wants to do some "pregnancy beauty shots" of her lol
Repacked Alex digging box and moistened the soil. Hopefully she drops her eggs soon. She's been really active, glass surfing a lot and just generally uncomfortable. She has a great appetite right now especially for dandelion greens. Kind of funny watching her try to eat. Her tongue eye coordination is a bit off with her body being a bit swollen from basically being pregnant. Wife wants to do some "pregnancy beauty shots" of her lol
I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
'Even the same genes being expressed don't necessarily have the same inheritance pattern.'
'But when you have that repeating expression is when the copy of a copy starts to break apart and not reprint as clearly so to speak.'
What?
BPSabelhaus
Well-Known Member
Oi, even I'm wondering what the heck I was trying to say. Was up at 3am and dealing with sensory overload yesterday so the body was basically on autopilot. I think dumb me was trying to explain inbreeding depression due to selection of y-linked recessive genes associated with color expression and how recessive linked alleles passed down over 3 generations results in loss of pigmentation and how that starts to express the individual alleles as an almost dominate gene.I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
'Even the same genes being expressed don't necessarily have the same inheritance pattern.'
'But when you have that repeating expression is when the copy of a copy starts to break apart and not reprint as clearly so to speak.'
What?
But that also sounds confusing lol Basically when you focus on a specific gene for a color / pattern / fin shape you start with Y but Y may also carry A,B,C and D but as the gene is copied you might carry A,B,c and D where you now have a recessive copy of a gene that starts to degrade black spots or alters the mating behavior of the male that inherited it. In a large colony the fish carrying that might never pass it down and that mutation dies out.
But in a small gene pool where all your sisters still carry that recessive allele will pass it down. The mutation could be positive or negative. If it starts to cause a hunched back where the fishes stomach is compressed and it can't digest food that's a problem in nature. But in breeding you can control what it eats. Now maybe it's eating a lot more greens. Again as these new generations survive they pass down mutations again. But to do that you need a large colony of fish that aren't carrying a double copy of the gene.
I carry a double copy of VAL-2. It's an overall part of Autism, but it's a literal gut kick. If I had one copy I would be able to process medications. But because I have two copies of a recessive gene my gut just doesn't process medications and a lot of other things the same way. It's just adaptations to different environments. You can still keep and breed large numbers of identical animals in terms of appearance but still have a healthy gene pool.
I really wonder what the cull rate is like for fancy goldfish? When I was at Midway, they had at least a dozen+ bubble eye goldfish and almost all, except like two, were showing a little bit of a bump or bit of spine coming out their backs instead of having zero dorsal fin that this breed is supposed to have. So if these were from the same vendor then it is realistically at least an 80% rate of fish that should have been culled? I notice that even online with the ranchu, there are a few that will get a little stub of a dorsal fin and they try and sell these off as "sharkchu"
Anyway, Im still on the lookout for a single goldie to add to my 65B to complete the stocking. Been on the lookout for what they call a red tiger oranda but they dont come around that often. So still searching. Still considering shaking up the tanks a bit and move two fish around to see if it helps with the variation of colors to both tanks.
Anyway, Im still on the lookout for a single goldie to add to my 65B to complete the stocking. Been on the lookout for what they call a red tiger oranda but they dont come around that often. So still searching. Still considering shaking up the tanks a bit and move two fish around to see if it helps with the variation of colors to both tanks.
BPSabelhaus
Well-Known Member
From what I have watched from koi and goldfish breeders in Japan there are multiple culls and the first few are very high for some mutations. Final show cull is probably the literal one in a million.
With Bettas my first cull will probably be roughly 50/50 basically just grey v white body. From there it will probably be almost 100% dark body cull. If they don't show purple I don't care. The white body will come down to Cambodian v cellophane. Cellophane go bye bye because my focus there is again purple. But the Cambodian gives me a couple useful genes. I want to depress fin size. I don't big wavy fins and Cambodian gives me that. The downside is I also want black patches to show off that purple as two different shades, but also to maintain a pink / black body. To do that I need the royal blue gene which is prevalent in all those dark body fry that got culled
But is still being carried and expressed in the scale layers where underlying black pigmentation remains.Edit: By cull I (and many of the breeders I watch) mean moving the fish elsewhere. Culls from all the strains basically moved into a colony to be disposed of as a group. This would be the feeder fish sort of stuff. Same deal with the next cull but usually kept as a group and sold as the breed they are cheaply. Next cull would be where you start to get into the selected stuff that meets the breed standard and from there show potential/ breeders etc... The culls happen at different life stages up to a couple years old for some fish.
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I hate to say it, but I find this whole process... disturbing. We've selectively bred grains and other food crops over thousands of years, to good effect and purpose. But here we have a process in which thousands of living beings are killed (let's not mince words here) simply to satisfy some arbitrary standard, or to stroke some breeder's ego. And whether you love (Aren't they cute!) or hate (Aren't they hideous!) the end products, the essential nature of the process that produced them remains the same.
My views on line-breeding and interspecific hybridization are well-known. And here we have line-breeding to the Nth degree, resulting in fishes that are every bit as deformed as many products of interspecific and/or intergeneric hybridization. As a biologist, I always come back to the same question- Why are we doing this?
My views on line-breeding and interspecific hybridization are well-known. And here we have line-breeding to the Nth degree, resulting in fishes that are every bit as deformed as many products of interspecific and/or intergeneric hybridization. As a biologist, I always come back to the same question- Why are we doing this?
BPSabelhaus
Well-Known Member
Profit mostly. Disease resistance, size / weight, amount of scales, growth rate all can be manipulated and the result is garbage farm raised Atlantic "salmon"
But from food production also comes intrinsic value. Things like large scales on carp arose after selective breeding for scaleless fish that were easier to process. Large scales start popping up and when you have enough ponds and servants from selling fish you can afford to put out a center piece of a large bronze scaled armored knight looking fish as a centerpiece while serving your guests the easier to prepare fish. Now they're bred as dragon scale fish. Thanks to the science of the mass breeder's producing food, there is understanding of those "unwanted" genes inheritance which allows more controlled breeding resulting in less culls.
The large production is still the problem. You don't so much have culls from breeding, you have mass die offs of entire colonies of basically clones due to disease etc...
Breeding and crossbreeding is a necessary part of domestication. We are creating a very specific ecosystem for a thing that naturally spreads and crossbreeds over time as the environment changes. We force all that to happen very rapidly from a small selection of the genes being passed around in the wild. The key is ensuring we dumb things while being smart lol I draw the line with goldfish at fantail. That's where anatomical changes begin to run into internal issues. They still do great in ponds, though they are out competed by comets and standard bodies due to the compression and fusion of spinal joints. After that they really need to be in proper aquarium setups with the right balance of foods etc... to survive.
To get my fantail to breed I will have to separate her and the male I want. Breeding in a colony just isn't going to work until the males behavior changes like with Guppies. Wild type and Endlers will dance themselves to exhaustion competing with other males for a female. Guppies (show strains with big tails) just group up and don't ask for consent. The females don't really choose like they used to. They don't care about the bright orange spots or the S wiggle. They're just along for the breeding
My Magenta tank shows it a bit with female disinterest, but the blonde tank is basically the movie Footloose. No dancing allowed. Too much domesticated genes in that colony.
But from food production also comes intrinsic value. Things like large scales on carp arose after selective breeding for scaleless fish that were easier to process. Large scales start popping up and when you have enough ponds and servants from selling fish you can afford to put out a center piece of a large bronze scaled armored knight looking fish as a centerpiece while serving your guests the easier to prepare fish. Now they're bred as dragon scale fish. Thanks to the science of the mass breeder's producing food, there is understanding of those "unwanted" genes inheritance which allows more controlled breeding resulting in less culls.
The large production is still the problem. You don't so much have culls from breeding, you have mass die offs of entire colonies of basically clones due to disease etc...
Breeding and crossbreeding is a necessary part of domestication. We are creating a very specific ecosystem for a thing that naturally spreads and crossbreeds over time as the environment changes. We force all that to happen very rapidly from a small selection of the genes being passed around in the wild. The key is ensuring we dumb things while being smart lol I draw the line with goldfish at fantail. That's where anatomical changes begin to run into internal issues. They still do great in ponds, though they are out competed by comets and standard bodies due to the compression and fusion of spinal joints. After that they really need to be in proper aquarium setups with the right balance of foods etc... to survive.
To get my fantail to breed I will have to separate her and the male I want. Breeding in a colony just isn't going to work until the males behavior changes like with Guppies. Wild type and Endlers will dance themselves to exhaustion competing with other males for a female. Guppies (show strains with big tails) just group up and don't ask for consent. The females don't really choose like they used to. They don't care about the bright orange spots or the S wiggle. They're just along for the breeding
My Magenta tank shows it a bit with female disinterest, but the blonde tank is basically the movie Footloose. No dancing allowed. Too much domesticated genes in that colony.
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Hate to put on the Moderator hat here especially since this is my thread, but this is really going off topic. It is getting hijacked a bit and has become more of an ethics debate. While there is a place for that conversation, lets please keep this thread free of this. Remember this thread is just a hobbyist sharing updates on his tank!